Global Bank CEO Turns Fintech Founder - Antony Jenkins, 10x Banking

Dexter Cousins interviews Antony Jenkins, the CEO and founder of 10X Banking, the core banking platform that makes banking ten times better.

Antony stands out in Fintech as the global CEO of Barclays who decided to start a fintech. Tune in for a deep dive into the challenges of core banking, the outdated technology in the banking sector, and how 10X helps banks like Westpac and Chase innovate fast. 

We talk about fixing the banking technology silo problem, Antony's transition from a large bank to a startup, and his approach to creating a high-performance culture within 10x and how it differs to running a global bank.

Antony also shares his thoughts on the future of fintech, opportunities in the Australian market (and their partnership with Constantinople) plus his advice for banking professionals considering a move to fintech.

Find out more https://www.10xbanking.com/

Contact: info@tieronepeople.com

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Transcript

Dexter Cousins (00:00.098)
You've just finished your role as CEO of a global bank. What do do next? Well, the options for an easy life are limitless. You've got the speaking circuit, your choice of advisory roles, and plenty of time left over for golf. But today's guest decided to screw all of that and become a fintech founder on a mission to make banking 10 times better.

Dexter Cousins (00:28.398)
I'm Dexter Cousins, your host and the founder of Tier One People, the executive search and recruitment firm dedicated to helping FinTech companies hire exceptional people. Today's guest is Antony Jenkins, the CEO and co-founder of 10X Banking, a core banking platform that works with Westpac, Chase and many other global banks, helping them deliver and innovate on products fast. Antony has an illustrious banking career as global CEO for Barclays. 

After leaving the bank in 2015, Antony began to contemplate the challenges he faced as a banking CEO. The deployment of technology was the big issue. I chat to Antony about his remarkable journey moving from banking CEO to a bootstrap fintech founder. And we also talk about the complexities of solving core banking and why so many fintechs seem to have stumbled along the way. But before I chat to Antony, I just want to say a massive thank you to you all.

your support. We've seen some amazing growth on the channel this year and it's all down to you. If you are new to the show and you're listening on podcast make sure you follow us and if you're watching on YouTube make sure you give us a like and subscribe. It really does help us in booking great guests like Anthony. Anthony welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

How are you finding Sydney?

Antony Jenkins (01:50.294)
It's great. I've had a set of fantastic meetings today and I'm really enjoying this lovely weather after a grim winter in the UK.

Yeah, yeah, well, you you're to a Geordie boy who moved here 21 years ago because he couldn't handle the cold weather anymore. So yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It's great to have you on the show. I'm a big fan of 10X, you know, helped the business launch here in Australia back in 2019 when you partnered with Westpac. So I'm super familiar with the business and what you do, but for our listeners that aren't familiar,

I can understand.

Dexter Cousins (02:26.702)
Could you tell us a little bit more about the big problem that you solved?

Yes, and it is a big problem that we're trying to solve here because we believe that the technology that banks operate with is outdated and not fit for purpose. And so our goal is to make banking literally 10 times better, better for banks, better for their customers and better for society by really the application of modern technology to the core problems of banking. How do you serve a customer better?

And your background, so can you tell our listeners a little bit about your background to give some context? Because this isn't like a few guys from Bondi trying to tackle that problem. You've got some real life experience of this problem.

Yes, I'm perhaps a little bit unusual in this regard in that I've essentially had two careers in my life. The first career over 30 years working in the banking industry in various parts of the world and various parts of the industry culminating with being the group CEO of one of the largest banks in the world, Barclays. So that was career one. Career two has been as a founder and entrepreneur in the fintech and technology business. And I'm

been very fortunate to have those two careers. They are, of course, linked because my experience in the first one informed what I did in the second one, but they are also quite distinct. In many ways, I think I might be in a universe of one, as somebody who's run a big bank and then gone on to found it.

Dexter Cousins (03:56.32)
You are what I would call the uniform candidate. So you touched on kind of the transition that you've had. So just to clarify 10x, they're a technology solution, not a financial services kind of business.

Yes. I mean, I see ourselves as essentially a technology company serving financial services, businesses, opposed to, know, FinTech is an extremely broad category as you well know. There's a lot of B2C businesses in there, neo banks, crypto companies, investment and pension management, things that face directly to consumers. I mean, we basically provide technology to the banking industry who then

deliver it to their customer.

when did you launch?

We launched in 2016, in the summer of 2016. Northern Hemispheres.

Dexter Cousins (04:51.992)
Yeah. So it's the same time I launched my business actually. And I guess, casting my mind back then, it a, it feels like it was a very different kind of time and moment for FinTech. You know, there was a lot of promise, you know, a lot of hype as well. It's been a tougher period this last two or three years. What have been your observations of, guess, you know, seeing the challenges, particularly when you look, you know, the banking as a service model, we've seen a lot of businesses coming.

come and go in that space. We've seen a lot of technology providers focus on core banking who made a lot of promises, haven't perhaps delivered on those promises. And then I guess here in Australia, we've seen actual digital banks that made a lot of promises and unfortunately aren't here anymore. What do you think has been the biggest challenge for all of these businesses in trying to get it right?

I've been in this business a long time and I've been through a few of these hype cycles. I think back to the late 90s when the internet was the new thing that was going to revolutionize banking and then of course it didn't. As we know, in trying to assess the impact of things on the future, we always tend to overestimate the impact in the short term and underestimate it in the long term. think that's exactly what's happening here.

almost Darwinian process in these hype cycles where lots and lots of things start with huge promise and a huge ambition and most of them fail. But out of that emerges some of the things that are going to make change over a long period of time. And the businesses that have been really successful through this period are the ones that are firstly trying to solve a real problem and secondarily are trying to do it in a way that brings material benefit to whoever the

sufferer of that promise, if you like, the end user. And so yes, a lot of businesses have crashed and burned. Some businesses have prospered and continue to do well. And I think some of them will do well in the future. Of course, we're probably in the second wave of fintech, where there's a sorting out of those that have got real longevity and those that are just kind of muddling along.

Dexter Cousins (07:14.05)
The zombie companies I think we've started calling.

companies. And I think, you know, that's it's all back to this issue of are you trying to sell for real? But the thing that people often miss in this conversation, and I think this is really important, the pressure that the fintech industry has brought to bear on the incumbents has forced them to up their game. So if you look at the digital offerings of the large banks here in Australia, for example, they're way better than they were in 2016.

And that's got to be good for customers and got to be good for society. So I know there's been a lot of neo banks here that have sort of started and failed. But of course that has put pressure on the incumbent.

Now you talked about solving a real problem. I'm going to take this one, well, quite a few steps further. The problem that you were talking about solving, it's real, but it's so complex. It's huge. How do you go about tackling that problem?

Well, for me, I come at this as fundamentally a business problem. So I literally sat down in my dining room at home in February of 2016 with a blank piece of paper and thought about all the things that frustrated me when I was running a bank. And then that sort of defined the problem. And then the question was, well, what's the solution to that problem? And some of the things that frustrated me were, why does it take me six months to launch a new product? Which in truth is just a variant of all the other products that I've got.

Antony Jenkins (08:42.678)
in my business. Why can't I get data in real time? Why do I have to extract it from batch processes and then spend a huge amount of money cleaning it up before I can do something useful? Why is my cost income ratio so high? All of these things were frustrations that I had had in the industry that allow me to sort of define a problem. And the problem really comes down to the fact that the technology in banking is so old.

that what happens is you've got a really old system over here and then some poor human in the middle taking data out of that system, doing something to it and then putting it back into a system over here, which itself is really old. And when you look at that, you just think that's crazy because it's so expensive, it's error prone, and it doesn't allow you to serve the customer in the way the customer wants to be served. So that was the sort of problem statement. The question was, well, how do you solve that?

And as I think back to those days with the blank pieces of paper, two things emerged in my own mind. The first was that, and this is a common theme in how technology gets deployed, but technology gets deployed in a mirror of the organizational structure of the organizations deploying it, something called Conway's Law. And what happened is that over the years, banks built huge

product stacks across the business. So they built a transaction banking system, a savings product, a mortgage product. And if the bank was the product of mergers, then there would be multiple versions of these systems and multiple versions of the systems that sit around them. And so I said, okay, rather than have all of that duplication, let's create a system that's based around the customer. So what that means is that I can now look at the data for that customer in real time.

as opposed to having to extract it from a dozen different systems and put it together. And then the second thing we said was, if you think about banking products, they all kind of do the same things. You know, have to onboard a customer, off-board a customer, you charge a fee or your credit fee, you charge interest or you pay interest. So rather than, again, create monolithic product stacks of code, let's create a set of microservices, almost like Lego blocks that we can assemble together to meet the needs of a customer.

Antony Jenkins (11:11.754)
Those were the two fundamental design principles that underpinned the solution to the problem. If you look today at our website, you'll see those things have been brought to life over the nine years we've

In terms of some of the customers that you work with, mentioned Westpac at the beginning of the show. Who else have you worked with?

So in Australia we work with Westpac and with Constantinople.

So we had Mac and Di on the show last week actually.

I know they've been guests of yours. So there are our clients here. We work with Chase in the UK. So Chase is the retail banking arm of JP Morgan. They are now deemed to be the number one bank in the UK by sort of customer review. So they've been incredibly successful launching using our technology.

Antony Jenkins (12:07.986)
We also work with Old Mutual in South Africa. So they've just launched their bank down there. And we have a number of other banks that we're working with, but we haven't disclosed around the world in Europe, Southeast Asia, in New Zealand, and in other parts of Africa.

I'm fascinated by the way in which you approach the problem and I'm curious as to what kind of hurdles or roadblocks you encountered not being a technologist and thinking of it from a customer and a business perspective.

Well, of course, I have absolutely no idea how to write a line of code.

You're not the unicorn.

And you would think that would be too hard.

Dexter Cousins (12:54.99)
I wish we never went near, I thought I'd found them.

I'm just a different type of unicorn.

The blue-eyed unicorn, not the pink-eyed.

But, you know, so it's like any business, right? So you have to put around you the people that have skills that complement your own. And what is, in many ways, what's the fundamental difference between a new business that is starting up and scaling up and an existing one? The fundamental difference is the pace at which that business learns. And like any business, you only learn by doing. And when you do, not everything works.

So the trick is to constantly be learning and adapting as you progress along the journey. And we, in the early days, we had to do everything from scratch. We had to figure out how to write the requirements for the system, how to document the code, how to test the code, how to deploy the code. And so that journey of iteration of iteration has really been what's allowed us to build the platform. We started off

Antony Jenkins (14:01.196)
doing a lot of functional build. And that journey broadly completed, sort of I'd say in the middle of last year, there's some work that we're finishing up. But then of course the attention switches to the non-functional performance of the platform. So how do you make sure that you speed up the processing? How do you make sure that you reduce the amount of compute resource? How do you make sure you can deploy new instances of the platform more quickly? All of those things.

I've also been part of the journey. And what I'm really proud of in 10X is we've got people who started as engineers, who have now progressed into the most senior levels of the company. know, people who joined us in very junior roles now leading delivery for us. And these things are great because people have grown up with the company, their opportunities have grown with the company, and they know the deep plumbing of how the code and the system works.

Building something over a decade in a space that technology is moving that fast that you kind of, you everybody, so every single chief exec I speak to has innovators dilemma is what we're building right now even going to be relevant in 12 months time. How have you kind of kept focused, kept your eye on the prize, not being distracted by, you know, the kind of latest, brightest, shiniest thing, whether it be, you know, blockchain or AI or...

whatever it might be and how have you kind of the, I guess kind of moving in tandem with your customers as well who they're suffering that same dilemma.

Yeah. So I think the important thing is to anchor back to what the mission is, because the mission has not changed. Our purpose remains make banking 10 times better. So everything we do is looked at through the lens of that. And so what that says is, if a new piece of tooling comes along, does it allow us to deliver that mission more accurately?

Antony Jenkins (16:08.884)
One of the things, for example, in our platform that's really important is observability. How is the platform performing at any point in time? What are the indicators that there might be a problem popping up? Well, we were using one tool to do that. It was very effective, but another one came along that was better. So we replaced it. So this constant kind of optimizing and tweaking of the platform to make sure that we're staying on mission is really critical to us. And we've been very careful not to lock ourselves into

any type of proprietary code or tool or capability, we've built the platform to cloud native standards, which means that we can flip in and out tools as we go along in pursuit of the mission. So that's really how we've, and we've designed that in from the start. So we didn't want to become our own sort of legacy, if you like.

I want to of double click on that point because if you're listening to your talk and that style of work, it's almost the antithesis to what you would expect in a big bank and the kind of bureaucracy and the challenges of getting anything done in that type of environment. How did you make the transition from being group CEO of one of the biggest banks of the world to then being literally

in a, I'm assuming you were in a shared office space with a laptop and a whiteboard and hey, what do do now? What's the next step?

Well, it was a little bit like that because, you know, after I got through the phase of just sort of thinking through the problem, then it was, well, what do we do about it? And that was really assembling a small team of people who could assist in what I was doing. Now, I was fortunate in that I could provide the seed funding for the business from my own resources. And I put the first million pounds of capital into the company myself.

Antony Jenkins (18:15.126)
So, you know, that's putting your money where your mouth is right. And that was important because it allowed us to get started. And like any business, as I said before, it's all about the people. So you assemble the people to get started. And then you start when you do work and you progress and then you figure out those people were great for that phase. Maybe we need different people for this phase. And so you've always got to be

respectful of the work that people have done, but not hesitate if you need to make a change because somebody who's right for, you know, the first 180 days of a business may not be right for the next for the, you year seven. Yeah, it is. And so that's how I did it. you know, I remember a few years after we started the business, I went to Canary Wharf to visit a large bank there, who remained nameless, but I was on

on the floor of their massive tower building. And I looked across this floor of just desk after desk after desk. It was pre-COVID, so people were, you know, all the desks were full. I just thought, what do all these people do, you know? And so when you have your own business, you are much more disciplined and resourceful.

Yeah, yeah. That point that you make about people being, you know, might be the right person for the first 180 days, but not, you the next seven years. It's one of the biggest challenges, I think, particularly for FinTech founders who maybe have not had as much leadership experience. There's this expectation that there's something wrong with your culture if people leave and if people aren't there for three years or five years.

lessons have you learned around creating a culture and were there any kind of big differences that you had to again adapt or transition to from what you'd learned and working in large corporates to then you create a culture from scratch and seeing that evolve as different people came in?

Antony Jenkins (20:13.102)
I mean, I'm incredibly grateful that I had my first career because it gave me a lot of business experience, some of which is relevant, some of which is not, but a lot of it was. I, you know, frankly, for people who do this in their 20s and 30s, hats off to them because, you know, they, they don't have that experience. Now, of course, they're not encumbered by it either. So that's, that's good for them. But, you know, for me, at the end of the day,

this comes down to people delivering against a task. And there's a sort normal distribution of how well people do that. But what you really want to be doing is driving towards the sort of right-hand side of that distribution. You want to create a high performing organization. And that's the sort of secret. That's something that's fascinated me my whole career. How do you create high performance in the organization?

One of things we did right from the start on culture was we set our values and they remain our values today. And actually you can see them on the wall in here. So our values are about transformation, integrity and impact. And what that really means is transformation is how we think about and do work. So we want things to be 10 times better, not just in what we deliver, but in how we deliver it. So we don't settle for the status quo. Integrity is about keeping our promises, our promises to each other.

our shareholders, to our clients. If you talk to our clients, I think they would say, we're there for them, come hell or high water, because in this business, have to be. can't be that technology company that, thank you for signing the contract, see you. We can't do that. And then the last one is impact. And this is really important because we said, even as a small and growing business, we can still have a positive impact in the world, whether that's in how we mentor our colleagues, the opportunities we provide to work with

secondary school students to encourage them to consider a career in technology, supporting women into STEM. Those are all things that we do in the company. And those have been sort of anchor points for the culture of the business as we drive this notion of high performance. And what we found with high performance is, know, your productivity skyrockets, right? And therefore you can deliver a much higher quality, greater content of work.

Antony Jenkins (22:36.29)
with the same or less resource as you get into that notion of high performance. yeah, I'll be very honest with you, you know, in the, this, there've been times in 10X when I've, when we haven't achieved that progression towards high performance as quickly as I wanted to. And that is incredibly frustrating for me because that's what I want to build an architect. But I'm feeling now that we're sort of in that zone of, of really, you know, there's a sort of flywheel effect to high performing organizations. And I always,

think you know that when people come to you and with ideas that you would never have thought of. And not only have they had the idea, but they've implemented it. And so that's one of my things about the difference between, if you put it in the context of an individual, if you look at a C performer, they'll come to you and say, boss, we've got a problem. If you look at a B performer, they'll come to you and say, boss, we've got a problem. And here's an idea of how we could solve it. If you look at an A performer, they come to you and say, boss, we had a problem and I fixed it.

And it's the same for the organization, know, those high performing organizations, people are identifying opportunities, solving problems. And most of the time they don't come to you with the problem, they come to you with the solution and tell you what they've done.

Yeah, it's, I'm smiling here because it's really fundamental to, and you know, kind of to the methodology of my business, particularly when assessing talent and that thing around high performance. think one of the biggest challenges, not just for 10X, but for every FinTech business is the people who have the app rebutes that you're looking for. about 10 % of the workforce.

And so it's not so much that there's a talent shortage, it's more that there's a kind of attitude shortage, I might put it that way. And that whole thing around high performances, you just have to unfortunately make mistakes or make the wrong hire or maybe settle for people that perhaps aren't ideal, fit that profile until you then get to the point where...

Dexter Cousins (24:41.772)
that culture and high performance culture starts to kind of manifest itself through just the people that are within it. It's such a difficult thing to get right.

I agree, and because the hard part about it is you have to admit that things aren't working the way you want them to.

Which is hard for every founder.

Exactly. And we all want to believe that we're perfect and infallible, but the truth of the matter is we're human and we make mistakes. And I've made my fair share of mistakes in tennis. And then of course, the very difficult situation where somebody who was great in that part of the journey is just not cutting it in this part of the journey. And then you have to say, we really thank you for everything you've done, but now's the time for somebody else to pick up

Yeah. Yeah. And it's such a tough thing, right? Because I think every founder that I've met certainly, you know, they really aspire to build a culture that's almost like a family. And you can't because it's a business. I'm never going to turn around to my kids and say, hey, I know you've tried hard, but... Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I'm not your dad anymore.

Antony Jenkins (25:47.118)
You're out.

Antony Jenkins (25:51.766)
I'm getting a message here.

Yeah, and I think it's one of the kind of, you know, just I think the harsh realities of being a founder is that, you know, your business in that first 10, 15 years, if you're lucky to get that for, will be 10 different businesses that all require different people, different skills. you know, I think one of the beauties is that now I'm starting to see founders who've taken that approach and there are people who are coming back to the business.

because they left on really good terms and it's now, hey, I can make an impact again. And I think that's one of the challenges to recognize that for each stage that you have, how do you utilize the resources to get you to that point? And then, look, you've got to earn the right to the next six months, the next 12 months, and that just takes different people.

And I think there's a very, again, complex dynamic here where when dealing with talent, you have to be human, but not emotional. you know, the emotion says, I've worked with this person for years, you know, I respect them, I like them, I want them. But the human element says, we've got to do the right thing for the business here. We have to treat these people with respect and dignity, but if it's time for a change, it's time for a change. And so that is the important.

and very difficult dynamic that needs to be managed in all of these organizations. Because at the end of the day, the health of the organization, the success of the organization is what matters. And there's a time for everybody to join an organization and time for everybody to leave an organization.

Dexter Cousins (27:29.89)
I want to kind of look towards the future. I've known Mack for a number of years, pre-Constantine noble. I was really excited, a little concerned about thing that they're trying to solve and the complexity of it. But I think ultimately, know, can't help but admire the boldness and the ambition of what they're trying to do.

as I felt exactly the same way when I first connected with 10X. at that time we had open banking, still wasn't a thing here in Australia. What do you see as now the kind of bright future for FinTech? We've been through some, I'd say, tough times recently. It does seem like there's now kind of light at the end of the tunnel and there's promise again.

What is your view of where we're at, and what do you see as the future for 10X and the future for banking?

So in our business, I suppose one of my takeaways from this line of work is everything takes longer, is more difficult and costs more than you think it's going to. But as we come into our sort of ninth year, what I feel really good about is what we've built and how we're positioned. And what this means is we can now start to deploy this technology in a way that

will truly solve the problem we set out to solve. And I think there's a number of businesses in the fintech space globally that are in that category. They've got the battle scars. They've weathered the storm. They've put themselves in a place where they've got really strong product market fit, and they can scale from there. The particular problem we're trying to solve, of course, is in a sense aided by time. Because when we started, the technology that the banks were using then, which was probably 20 or 30 years old, is now.

Antony Jenkins (29:28.75)
40 off.

The wills run out of cobalt

And although there are companies that make good money out of selling bank big mainframe batch driven systems, that is going to come to an end. And so for us, the circumstances, the stars are aligning in a way that mean that this business can scale from here. And I feel extremely confident in what we can do. And we're talking to a sort of medium sized bank and

we'll be able to replatform them entirely in about 18 months, which is unheard of. I think there's a number of areas across the FinTech space where that sort of traction is starting to happen. And so we're in the second wave now. So when that scaling starts to bite, we'll see some real impact.

Yeah. And in terms of Australia, what are your thoughts on Australia as a fintech hub and what's got you excited about this region?

Antony Jenkins (30:32.866)
Yeah, I mean, I think that here you've got a banking system which is stratified very similar to the UK, right? So you've got a few big banks, you've got a middle tier and then you've got a small tier. And each of those tiers has got different needs. At the very low end of the market, know, those organizations are often mutual or community focused, they do great work, but they need to be able to modernize their technology and offering.

as the needs of customers change. And that's where a business like Constantinople plays a fantastic role. In the middle part of the market, we are seeing consolidation. But again, when you consolidate banking businesses, you need to be able to create cost synergies there. And one of the key ways to do that is to modernize the technology onto one leading stack. And so that's a great opportunity for us. And then the big banks, the work we're doing with Westpac is fantastic. We're platforming their corporate bank.

210x, which will allow them to have the most dynamic offering in the market. We're incredibly excited about that. So in Australia and in New Zealand, we see some fantastic opportunities for us.

Brilliant. Now, before we wrap up, I've got a question that I need to ask you and it's based on research that I've done over this last, what, 10 years. And it's, you know, it's a stat that is quite stock for anybody who is looking to move out of banking or a banking career and into fintech. And that is that from the data I've collected, 90 % of people who make that move end up leaving.

the fintech within six months. And I've got some kind of insights into why that is. But I wondered from your side, having done that, made that move, what would be your guidance for any or advice to anybody who is kind of sitting, come to the end of, I think I've had enough of my banking career and I'd really love to move into fintech. What would be your guidance for anybody contemplating that so that they're not one of the...

Dexter Cousins (32:42.99)
90 % for one of the 10%.

Well, my first piece of advice would be think very hard before you make that move. The grass is not greener on the other side of fence.

So try to tell people it's not sitting on bean bags drinking kombucha, figuring out how to solve world hunger with a blockchain. It's very different.

Exactly. I think you have to understand what it is that you enjoyed about your work in the banking world and you disliked about your work in the banking world and then figure out whether moving into fintech solves those issues for you, whether you'll get more of the things you liked and less of the things you disliked. That's the first thing you have to figure out. The second thing is what's your risk appetite.

is as basic as, I afford it? Personally, for my family, is that a move I can afford to make? Because it's a high risk activity. And interestingly, most people in banks are quite risk averse. That's why they ended up working in banks in the first place. So I've met many people who say, it must be so good to be in a Fintech. It's like,

Antony Jenkins (33:59.938)
Well, yes, there are great things about it. You can solve big problems. You can move fast. You don't have to deal with the bureaucracy. But there's lots of other things you have to face. Like, you you can never run out of money. That's never a problem I had to think about when I was working in the big banks. So I think there's that understanding. There's not that not glamorizing. If you like the fintech world, really understanding what it's going to be like. And then I would always say to people,

If you think there's an opportunity for you to have a richer professional life and you can take the risk, then try it. And if it doesn't work out, you'll have learned something and you'll probably be more valuable if you want to go back into mainstream banking. But think very, very hard before you make that move.

Brilliant. We get amazing talent listening to this podcast and watching. If they're interested in careers at 10x, where's the best place for them to go?

10xbanking.com, that's numerals 10, letter X, banking.com. It's all on the website.

Got a lot of banking execs listen to this podcast as well. If they're still having sleepless nights with their technology, where can they get hold of you,

Antony Jenkins (35:16.974)
You know where we are. My email address is Anthony. There's no H-A-N-T-O-N-Y at 10xbanking.com. If you send me an email, we'll get right back to you.

Awesome. Well, enjoy your trip. Thanks very much for sharing all of your insights, Anthony. It's been great to have you on the show. And thanks for joining me, folks. As always, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. If you're new to the show, make sure you follow us wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can watch us on FinTechChatter TV on YouTube. Until the next episode, keep well.

Thank you, it's been a real pleasure.